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Author Topic: Monster High by Aaron Bordner - The Original Monster High?  (Read 2664 times)

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Re: Monster High by Aaron Bordner - The Original Monster High?
« Reply #20 on: February 19, 2018, 07:31:27 AM »
If the comic company sold his ideas, that's on him and the comic company.  That's not on Mattel.  I also never said I doubted that they contacted him.  I don't think any of us have.  I have wondered, though, if he really feels they stole from him, why has there been no lawsuit?  You see them enough that it wouldn't be a big shocker.   

As I said before, my sister has looked up Monster High from the start, never came across it.  I've been a part of communities for years, first helping her with her collection, then working on my own.  No one has ever mentioned this obscure comic.

Nothing is ever really original anymore.  I do still feel it's coincidental.  Even if it lines up perfectly for you, well, that's how you see it.  I can't change your mind, clearly, and I'm not here to try.  Just to put in my own two cents on the matter, as that's what I'm sure you wanted us to do.
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Offline Carrehz

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Re: Monster High by Aaron Bordner - The Original Monster High?
« Reply #21 on: February 19, 2018, 07:36:31 AM »
Huh.
Why black hair with white streaks, by the way? Not like the monster had hair like that...

Frankie (and, presumably, this obscure comic character) gets her hair colour from the Bride of Frankenstein.

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Offline rco55

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Re: Monster High by Aaron Bordner - The Original Monster High?
« Reply #22 on: February 19, 2018, 08:22:16 AM »
If the comic company sold his ideas, that's on him and the comic company.  That's not on Mattel.

Oh no, if that really is the case, it's totally on Mattel.

Even if SIRIUS had the rights to his comic, it is only ethical to approach the creator of the comic and at the very least give them a heads up that an adaptation of their work is being produced as a toy line/book series/etc. Seems like a very slimy move to just be "well we don't need to talk to the person who gave birth to this idea at all, let's proceed to ignore him, say this guy (Garrett Sander) came up with it on his own, and then when he approaches us about this we just say "oh we don't think they look alike at all"". Not sure if he has attempted to sue, or if he's just given up on it, since again, all i'm basing myself off is the few interactions i've had with Aaron and his public posts on the matter.

But as you said. Whether you think it's just a coincidence or I think there's something fishy going on, it doesn't change anything at all and it's up to each person to decide, which is the reason why i made the topic. Mostly speculation. Sorry if it ever comes off as me saying "this is the absolute truth you guys!" or anything of the sort, i promise you it's not :) as evidenced by the replies on the topic, i don't think anyone can know for sure unless they're Aaron or Garrett or Mattel, myself included.

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Re: Monster High by Aaron Bordner - The Original Monster High?
« Reply #23 on: February 19, 2018, 08:33:43 AM »
Not unless Mattel didn't know that he had not given the rights to sell the comic, especially if SIRIUS did it behind his back as you say.

That's the opinion I'm getting from you.  You seem to not buy the coincidence, nor do you want to listen to anyone who thinks it's coincidental.  It seems a stretch for you to think that anyone else could have come p with ____ in high school and call it ____ High.  This is just going around in circles at this point.
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Offline rco55

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Re: Monster High by Aaron Bordner - The Original Monster High?
« Reply #24 on: February 19, 2018, 08:50:33 AM »
Not unless Mattel didn't know that he had not given the rights to sell the comic, especially if SIRIUS did it behind his back as you say.

That's the opinion I'm getting from you.  You seem to not buy the coincidence, nor do you want to listen to anyone who thinks it's coincidental.  It seems a stretch for you to think that anyone else could have come p with ____ in high school and call it ____ High.  This is just going around in circles at this point.

What I say is in regards to what i've read and seen published by Aaron himself.

Coincidence happens, and believe me, i'm not here to be convinced or wanting to convince anyone  ^^; again, not a conspiracy theorist. We're just sharing opinions and exploring the possibilities of it being true or not. I commented on what akirafay said, and agreed with her in the points she brought up. Actually, i've tried to make sure every post i make on this topic has a small form of disclaimer that i'm not trying to convince anyone and it's just speculation. If you feel the topic is going in circles, then I guess it makes no sense to keep commenting on the topic. But for other people who may want to give their two cents, then it's up to them if they want to comment on it or just ignore it.

That said, if a mod feels this is a topic that's going to cause any sort of negative response, then by all means do what's necessary. I brought it up as something interesting to share opinions on, but this is a cool community and i'm not here to cause drama over a speculation topic. Thanks!
« Last Edit: February 19, 2018, 09:01:02 AM by rco55 »

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Re: Monster High by Aaron Bordner - The Original Monster High?
« Reply #25 on: February 19, 2018, 12:07:26 PM »
If the comic company sold his ideas, that's on him and the comic company.  That's not on Mattel.

Oh no, if that really is the case, it's totally on Mattel.

Even if SIRIUS had the rights to his comic, it is only ethical to approach the creator of the comic and at the very least give them a heads up that an adaptation of their work is being produced as a toy line/book series/etc. Seems like a very slimy move to just be "well we don't need to talk to the person who gave birth to this idea at all, let's proceed to ignore him, say this guy (Garrett Sander) came up with it on his own, and then when he approaches us about this we just say "oh we don't think they look alike at all"". Not sure if he has attempted to sue, or if he's just given up on it, since again, all i'm basing myself off is the few interactions i've had with Aaron and his public posts on the matter.

But as you said. Whether you think it's just a coincidence or I think there's something fishy going on, it doesn't change anything at all and it's up to each person to decide, which is the reason why i made the topic. Mostly speculation. Sorry if it ever comes off as me saying "this is the absolute truth you guys!" or anything of the sort, i promise you it's not :) as evidenced by the replies on the topic, i don't think anyone can know for sure unless they're Aaron or Garrett or Mattel, myself included.
Now that we know that Mattel bought the rights, that completely changes this entire situation. Mattel did nothing wrong. I imagine what happened was that Mattel had the idea for a high school for monsters, saw that the name 'Monster High' was trademarked, and approached the rights owners. SIRIUS owned the rights and sold them to Mattel, and that was that. Once Mattel had the rights, they might have liked Aaron's ideas for which monsters to center the story around (the main types of monster really), and just used some of the very vague ideas from the rights they now owned. Mattel then owned the rights to Monster High, and they had every right. There is no way that this is on Mattel. They did everything right. They approached the owner of the rights and bought them. Obviously SIRIUS knew Mattel wanted to turn Monster High into a toy line when they sold the rights, so if you want to blame anyone, blame SIRIUS for selling the rights to the comics without giving Aaron a heads up.
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Re: Monster High by Aaron Bordner - The Original Monster High?
« Reply #26 on: February 19, 2018, 01:14:58 PM »
I find it rather unlikely that Mattel stole his idea.  Even if someone who works for Mattel saw his comics and told the head of the doll department or whatever about this idea and them turning it into a franchise is very unlikely.  I don't think he's well known and if he is I'm sorry if I offended anyone.

Offline SaelaVe

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Re: Monster High by Aaron Bordner - The Original Monster High?
« Reply #27 on: February 19, 2018, 01:32:45 PM »
I'll quote Aaron in things he has said publicly in his FB profile. He has mentioned before that apparently the rights to his idea (Monster High), which were published under SIRIUS, the comic company the released his comic, were sold to Mattel without his permission. That scarred him enough to publish his comics on his own since then.

Okay this radically changes things if this is true.  If Mattel bought the rights to Monster High from Sirius then, strictly-speaking, they did nothing wrong and now legally own whatever names and trademarks they acquired through that purchase.  That isn't thievery at all, that's business.

I understand what you're saying about how, from an ethical perspective, Mattel should have contacted the creator of the series; but truthfully, this has nothing to do with ethics and everything to do with legality.
If Mattel wanted to secure the rights to Monster High School, their first move wouldn't be to contact the series writer—it would be to contact the publisher.  Often comic book companies employ writers whose sole job is to create scripts for the other artists to follow.  They have nothing to do with the creation of the concept or the characters, and they don't own any sort of copyright over the work.  So Mattel would have no reason to approach the writer unless Sirius had informed them that they didn't own copyright of the story.  And let's be honest, none of us can say for sure that they didn't.  It is entirely possible that Bordner unwittingly signed over more than just distribution rights when he entered into his contract with Sirius. 
I used to work in the comic book industry as a writer, pencilist, and colorist, and I saw a lot of dubious contracts.  I worked on one particular story that will always stick out in my mind.  The creator and writer of the series was so excited to secure a publisher that he signed on with the first company to make him an offer.  He ended up signing over almost complete and total creative control of the project without even realizing what he had done.

In regards to Mattel owing Bordner a heads-up that they were buying the rights to his story: I completely concur with Crimson Kitty that that was on Sirius, not Mattel.  Sirius were the ones who should've contacted Bordner and let him know that there were selling his story.  If Mattel believed that they had bought the rights from the legal owner of those rights, they would have had no reason to contact anyone else.
« Last Edit: February 19, 2018, 01:34:50 PM by SaelaVe »

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Offline rco55

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Re: Monster High by Aaron Bordner - The Original Monster High?
« Reply #28 on: February 19, 2018, 01:58:17 PM »
I'll quote Aaron in things he has said publicly in his FB profile. He has mentioned before that apparently the rights to his idea (Monster High), which were published under SIRIUS, the comic company the released his comic, were sold to Mattel without his permission. That scarred him enough to publish his comics on his own since then.

Okay this radically changes things if this is true.  If Mattel bought the rights to Monster High from Sirius then, strictly-speaking, they did nothing wrong and now legally own whatever names and trademarks they acquired through that purchase.  That isn't thievery at all, that's business.

I understand what you're saying about how, from an ethical perspective, Mattel should have contacted the creator of the series; but truthfully, this has nothing to do with ethics and everything to do with legality.
If Mattel wanted to secure the rights to Monster High School, their first move wouldn't be to contact the series writer—it would be to contact the publisher.  Often comic book companies employ writers whose sole job is to create scripts for the other artists to follow.  They have nothing to do with the creation of the concept or the characters, and they don't own any sort of copyright over the work.  So Mattel would have no reason to approach the writer unless Sirius had informed them that they didn't own copyright of the story.  And let's be honest, none of us can say for sure that they didn't.  It is entirely possible that Bordner unwittingly signed over more than just distribution rights when he entered into his contract with Sirius. 
I used to work in the comic book industry as a writer, pencilist, and colorist, and I saw a lot of dubious contracts.  I worked on one particular story that will always stick out in my mind.  The creator and writer of the series was so excited to secure a publisher that he signed on with the first company to make him an offer.  He ended up signing over almost complete and total creative control of the project without even realizing what he had done.

In regards to Mattel owing Bordner a heads-up that they were buying the rights to his story: I completely concur with Crimson Kitty that that was on Sirius, not Mattel.  Sirius were the ones who should've contacted Bordner and let him know that there were selling his story.  If Mattel believed that they had bought the rights from the legal owner of those rights, they would have had no reason to contact anyone else.

That's interesting, and I guess if that was the case then it really sucks for him if it happened like that. I'm assuming the situation must've been an internal issue with Aaron and Sirius, and the deals they made without letting him know at all.

Also yeah, strictly speaking, none of them had to make any notifications to the artist and writer of a series if the contract doesn't tell them to, but damn, business can be a cold thing to deal with when it comes to art and artists. I guess things like these are a good stories to keep in mind when approached by publishing companies, record labels, etc - to never sign away things without making sure you can at least have a say in future agreements done with your work.

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Re: Monster High by Aaron Bordner - The Original Monster High?
« Reply #29 on: February 19, 2018, 03:28:14 PM »
In my opinion, I’m glad we got the monster high we got. Not trying to be rude, but I hated frankie’s hair and I didn’t really like the character designs in the comics. That does stink though since he really was the first MH creator.
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Re: Monster High by Aaron Bordner - The Original Monster High?
« Reply #30 on: February 19, 2018, 05:06:52 PM »
I'll quote Aaron in things he has said publicly in his FB profile. He has mentioned before that apparently the rights to his idea (Monster High), which were published under SIRIUS, the comic company the released his comic, were sold to Mattel without his permission. That scarred him enough to publish his comics on his own since then.

Okay this radically changes things if this is true.  If Mattel bought the rights to Monster High from Sirius then, strictly-speaking, they did nothing wrong and now legally own whatever names and trademarks they acquired through that purchase.  That isn't thievery at all, that's business.

I understand what you're saying about how, from an ethical perspective, Mattel should have contacted the creator of the series; but truthfully, this has nothing to do with ethics and everything to do with legality.
If Mattel wanted to secure the rights to Monster High School, their first move wouldn't be to contact the series writer—it would be to contact the publisher.  Often comic book companies employ writers whose sole job is to create scripts for the other artists to follow.  They have nothing to do with the creation of the concept or the characters, and they don't own any sort of copyright over the work.  So Mattel would have no reason to approach the writer unless Sirius had informed them that they didn't own copyright of the story.  And let's be honest, none of us can say for sure that they didn't.  It is entirely possible that Bordner unwittingly signed over more than just distribution rights when he entered into his contract with Sirius. 
I used to work in the comic book industry as a writer, pencilist, and colorist, and I saw a lot of dubious contracts.  I worked on one particular story that will always stick out in my mind.  The creator and writer of the series was so excited to secure a publisher that he signed on with the first company to make him an offer.  He ended up signing over almost complete and total creative control of the project without even realizing what he had done.

In regards to Mattel owing Bordner a heads-up that they were buying the rights to his story: I completely concur with Crimson Kitty that that was on Sirius, not Mattel.  Sirius were the ones who should've contacted Bordner and let him know that there were selling his story.  If Mattel believed that they had bought the rights from the legal owner of those rights, they would have had no reason to contact anyone else.
THANK YOU, haha, this is exactly what I was trying to say! Especially the parts I bolded. I think mine came out a tad wordy and repetitive  ^^;

Sadly, this is the business side of the art world. It is cruel and numbers-based, and artists are constantly ripped off and tricked :(  I feel bad for Aaron, it sounds like he didn't quite realize what he was signing over when he signed with SIRIUS. I hope he doesn't do business with them anymore.
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Offline Wardah

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Re: Monster High by Aaron Bordner - The Original Monster High?
« Reply #31 on: February 19, 2018, 05:50:32 PM »
I can also understand why Mattel might not have been too keen to associate MH with the original comics. While I never read it so I cannot be sure, a lot of gothy stuff from that time period wasn't exactly family friendly.
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Re: Monster High by Aaron Bordner - The Original Monster High?
« Reply #32 on: February 20, 2018, 06:05:18 AM »
Huh.
Why black hair with white streaks, by the way? Not like the monster had hair like that...

Frankie (and, presumably, this obscure comic character) gets her hair colour from the Bride of Frankenstein.

Um. Well but her hair was actually red with a single white streak (edit. on each side, sorry)... just saying. ^^
« Last Edit: February 20, 2018, 06:34:17 AM by akirafay »

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Re: Monster High by Aaron Bordner - The Original Monster High?
« Reply #33 on: February 20, 2018, 12:16:01 PM »
Huh.
Why black hair with white streaks, by the way? Not like the monster had hair like that...

Frankie (and, presumably, this obscure comic character) gets her hair colour from the Bride of Frankenstein.

Um. Well but her hair was actually red with a single white streak (edit. on each side, sorry)... just saying. ^^

well, sure, if you want to be pedantic about it. Since it was a black and white film, her hair colour is usually depicted as black and white in popular culture, even though it's technically incorrect. That's what both of these Frankies are riffing off.

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Re: Monster High by Aaron Bordner - The Original Monster High?
« Reply #34 on: February 20, 2018, 12:30:31 PM »
I mean, my obvious choice would be a vampire and a werewolf, which Mattel did, but why the frankenstein? It's not really a "common" monster by all means, it's just one character from a book often featured in movie spin offs.

I have to completely disagree with you on this.  Frankenstein is arguably one of the best-known monsters of the modern era, thanks in large part to his place in the Universal Monsters family. 
The creature—or characters directly inspired by the creature—has appeared in dozens of films and television shows over the years, including The Munsters, The Flintstones, Scooby-Doo, Looney Tunes, Mickey Mouse, Goof Troop, The Monster Squad, Monster Mash, Abbott and Costello Meet Frankenstein, Yellow Submarine, The Rocky Horror Picture Show, Saturday Night Live, Once Upon A Time, Adventure Time, Frankenweenie, the Hotel Transylvania series, Van Helsing, Penny Dreadful, and Rick and Morty.  Not to mention all of the many, many film adaptations of the novel itself. 
Then you have two characters named Frankie appearing in Groovie Goolies and Drak Pack, as well as Eldon Styne on Supernatural.  Which just goes to show that deriving the names "Frankie" and "Stein" from Frankenstein is far from new or original.

There are also numerous other forms of media in which Frankenstein's monster has appeared, including LEGO's Monster Fighters series, the light novel Fate/Apocrypha, Marvel Comics, DC Comics, Overwatch, and Franken Berry cereal.


Moreover, the name of the monster is actually not Frankenstein. The monster did not have a name, Frankenstein was the name of the guy who created the monster.  As far as I know, while being a rather common mistake, it was not reflected in movies either.. (this could, again, be a coincidence, of course).

While it is certainly true that the creature was never given a name in Mary Shelley's novel nor in the original Universal films starring Boris Karloff, the practice of referring to the monster by the name of its creator goes as far as back as at least 1927, when—in Peggy Webling's stage adaptation of the novel—Victor Frankenstein calls his creation by his own name.
So again, this is nothing new and has been commonplace for many years now.


Huh.
Why black hair with white streaks, by the way? Not like the monster had hair like that...

Frankie (and, presumably, this obscure comic character) gets her hair colour from the Bride of Frankenstein.

Um. Well but her hair was actually red with a single white streak (edit. on each side, sorry)... just saying. ^^

Technically, yes.  But in black and white, as the original movie was filmed, you couldn't tell that the character's hair was actually red.  It appeared black on-screen, which is why many iterations of the character—not just Bordner's version or Mattel's version—have featured black hair with white streaks ever since. 
Do a search for the term "bride of Frankenstein" and you'll see tons of pieces of artwork and cosplay photos featuring black hair instead of red.

I personally believe that the black-haired version of Frankenstein's bride was further solidified by Lily Munster's appearance in The Munsters.  While Lily herself was a vampire, she was quite literally the "bride of Frankenstein", and so her look seems to have been heavily inspired by the 1935 film.  But unlike the 1935 bride, Lily truly did have black hair with white streaks.

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Offline RodimusKnight

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Re: Monster High by Aaron Bordner - The Original Monster High?
« Reply #35 on: February 20, 2018, 12:58:13 PM »
Huh.
Okay, first thing, I do agree that the best that can be done at this point is guesswork.

That being said.

I am going to go into the minority, but I simply cannot agree with "pure coincidence".
I mean, come on. Sure, the names are obvious puns and could be coincidence.
BUT
Why this selection of monsters for main characters, then? Why make frankenstein best friends with a werewolf? I mean, my obvious choice would be a vampire and a werewolf, which Mattel did, but why the frankenstein? It's not really a "common" monster by all means, it's just one character from a book often featured in movie spin offs. So why not Ctulhu, or Godzilla?
Moreover, the name of the monster is actually not Frankenstein. The monster did not have a name, Frankenstein was the name of the guy who created the monster.  As far as I know, while being a rather common mistake, it was not reflected in movies either.. (this could, again, be a coincidence, of course).
Why black hair with white streaks, by the way? Not like the monster had hair like that...

Ok let's go on. Why a random sea monster. Why not a mermaid? Why a non-specific monster like Lagoona? It's not like there is a set design for sea monsters, yet I see very similar ears.

Cleopatra would not come to my mind as a mummy monster - probably Nefertiti (Nefertari) would, since her mummy was found together with her bust. Also, she does not like a mummy, does she. She looks like a human with egyptian-like hairstyle (though in Mattel MH she did wear mummy-like clothes and after the reboot she got bandages).

And a smart girl with Ghoulia's glasses.

Now my point is - all of these could be a coincidence. But all of them together as a coincidence just seem SO unlikely I just cannot believe that.
Also, the fact that this comics was not known and doesn't pop up in google search or anywhere actually suggests that Mattel could have taken some inspiration there. No big company would risk adapting something that was known as the public backlash could damage it.

Again, though, nothing can be done about it now and I LOVE Mattel's MH. Just wanted to say this, though.

The original Monster Girls chosen were all related to the old Universal monster movies.
Frankenstein
The Werewolf
Dracula
The Mummy
The creature from the Black Lagoon.

We had some crossovers as well in these....  Here's a wiki list. You could probably find most of the Monster High early characters relating to a number of these movies...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Universal_Monsters


Offline akirafay

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Re: Monster High by Aaron Bordner - The Original Monster High?
« Reply #36 on: February 20, 2018, 11:43:08 PM »
I really do not want to argue with anyone.
I adore Mattel's MH and I have a collection of more than 150 MH dolls, I even have my own customs.
I am not trying to put blame on anyone for anything, I am not trying to fight anyone here. :(
I am simply stating what seems within the bounds of probability to me. I said repeatedly that, of course, it could all be a coincidence.

I am not a horror fan and I if it was based on the universal monsters, then it does, of course, make much more sense and does increase the chances of complete coincidence. I also get that you can offer counter-arguments to most of what I've said, and I could then again counter react with some of my own, because we have different perspectives, and that is perfectly fine.

For me, even with the list of universal monsters, it could have been any other combination of characters, any other interpretation. You can say it's the "obvious" choices, but I don't think it's possible to judge that in retrospective, since we are all affected by the MH we know and love. Again. It is possible that it is coincidence. I am not denying that.

Inspiration is often affected by series of influences and events, and that is how if you give 100 people a common theme, they will often end up with similar ideas (considering the common theme) that will differ in details. And I am simply missing that here. That is all I really wanted to point out in my post.
An example - the monster from the dark lagoon inspired both Abe in Hellboy and The Asset in Shape of Water. They are similar and people even thought the trailer for Shape of Water announced a Hellboy pre/sequel. But when you see both designs side by side, then you will see many differences. Yes, they are both aquatic humanoids and share the same original motif, and so they inherently share some common traits, but there are many more differences than similarities - eye shape, colors, patters, body shape, body definition, gill interpretation, nose design, webbing.
And of course there are differences between Lagoona and Aaron's character, but also some similarities that go beyond the basic concept, such as the ears;plus their designs are simpler than both mentioned monsters; and it would only be one of many similarities combined together.

In my mind, it all comes down to Occam's razor (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occam%27s_razor) - "when presented with competing hypothetical answers to a problem, one should select the one that makes the fewest assumptions." And, of course, that doesn't claim that the simplest solution must be the right one, only that it tends to be. And since we have no proofs for either side, it only made sense to me to point this out. I might be proven wrong, or there may never be any proof at all.

And again, please understand that I am not blaming anyone, nor accusing Mattel or anybody of stealing ideas; especially since the artist was apparently screwed over by the publishing company. If that was proved true, then that would, of course, explain the similarities.

Offline rco55

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Re: Monster High by Aaron Bordner - The Original Monster High?
« Reply #37 on: February 21, 2018, 08:03:53 AM »
I'd like to reiterate that i did not start this topic with the intention of causing issues.

I understand 100% having an opinion/being opinionated, but I'd like to remind everybody so that we make sure it all remains chill, that we're discussing about a fashion doll line targeted to kids and tweens. As adults, I'm sure we all understand that opinions are not facts unless we were there and/or have proof. I presented the things that I saw, read, and heard the author say in regards to this for discussion.

Mattel never even made a statement about the issue, so we really don't know what Mattel's stance on this is other than they say Garrett Sander came up with the idea and they used it, and that Aaron's MH doesn't look like theirs at all and that you can't copyright an idea (this last part according to what Aaron has said about their exchanges).

If you find that the possibility of the original idea being Aaron's is farfetched, that's cool. I don't think me or akirafay or anybody who may give it a second thought wants to force you into believing it (I'd hope).

I am all for discussing how likely it is that the ideas could just be coincidence, and how the themes could be similar yet not the same, that's awesome and could even lead to learning new things, that i'm down with. But please, let's keep it chill. It's toys we're talking about.

In regards to the topic, i'll leave this here:

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/AllGhoulsSchool

It is so common a trope that it even has a page on TVTropes.com. But for me at least, the overlapping of themes is at the very least unfortunate in these two particular cases.

Offline SaelaVe

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Re: Monster High by Aaron Bordner - The Original Monster High?
« Reply #38 on: February 21, 2018, 01:34:13 PM »
I really do not want to argue with anyone.
I adore Mattel's MH and I have a collection of more than 150 MH dolls, I even have my own customs.
I am not trying to put blame on anyone for anything, I am not trying to fight anyone here. :(
I am simply stating what seems within the bounds of probability to me. I said repeatedly that, of course, it could all be a coincidence.

This thread has actually remained extremely civil and non-confrontational up to this point.  But it is a discussion thread, and so any opinions that are posted are subject to be debated.  As long as those debates remain respectful, there's nothing wrong with both sides expressing differing opinions and presenting rebuttals to one another's opinions. :)
Debate and argument are two very different things; and debate does not invalidate one another's opinions.


I'd like to reiterate that i did not start this topic with the intention of causing issues.

I understand 100% having an opinion/being opinionated, but I'd like to remind everybody so that we make sure it all remains chill, that we're discussing about a fashion doll line targeted to kids and tweens. As adults, I'm sure we all understand that opinions are not facts unless we were there and/or have proof. I presented the things that I saw, read, and heard the author say in regards to this for discussion.

...

I am all for discussing how likely it is that the ideas could just be coincidence, and how the themes could be similar yet not the same, that's awesome and could even lead to learning new things, that i'm down with. But please, let's keep it chill. It's toys we're talking about.

And so far that is precisely what this thread has done.  This has been an excellent source of healthy debate and conversation.  And it can continue to be going forward as long as everyone remembers to be respectful of one another's opinions, and nobody becomes offended with or aggressive toward others for expressing differing opinions from their own.

As I've already said, this thread has not been argumentative so far.  I know that there are some very passionate opinions being expressed here, but most everyone has refrained from becoming angry, defensive, or insulting toward others. :)

I'd like to remind everyone that if you have an issue with something that someone has said, please use the "Report to moderator" function to report the post.  This will help to bring the issue to the attention of the mod team and will help to keep situations from escalating.



Now, to continue on with the conversation....


Inspiration is often affected by series of influences and events, and that is how if you give 100 people a common theme, they will often end up with similar ideas (considering the common theme) that will differ in details. And I am simply missing that here. That is all I really wanted to point out in my post.
An example - the monster from the dark lagoon inspired both Abe in Hellboy and The Asset in Shape of Water. They are similar and people even thought the trailer for Shape of Water announced a Hellboy pre/sequel. But when you see both designs side by side, then you will see many differences. Yes, they are both aquatic humanoids and share the same original motif, and so they inherently share some common traits, but there are many more differences than similarities - eye shape, colors, patters, body shape, body definition, gill interpretation, nose design, webbing.
And of course there are differences between Lagoona and Aaron's character, but also some similarities that go beyond the basic concept, such as the ears;plus their designs are simpler than both mentioned monsters; and it would only be one of many similarities combined together.

I absolutely agree with what you're saying about inspiration.  However, I personally feel that the Asset and the Gill-Man are way more similar in design than Bordner's sea creature and Lagoona.  Bordner's creature has gills down her neck and scales on her upper arms which Lagoona doesn't have; and the hair and facial features are completely different between the two.  The only real similarity between them is their ears, and I've seen that same ear design used on dozens of other sea monsters.  It's actually pretty common to transform the earlobes into fins when designing a humanoid sea creature/sea nymph.  Here are just a few examples of similar ear designs (the first three images are from Pinterest and the last image is from eBay):

Sorry but you are not allowed to view spoiler contents.

Compared to the single shared feature between Bordner's creature and Lagoona, the Asset and the Gill-Man's similarities are pretty uncanny:

Sorry but you are not allowed to view spoiler contents.


But I do completely understand if you feel that Lagoona appears too similar to Bordner's design.  I don't see it myself, but again, maybe it's just because I've seen that particular style of ear used so many times now that they all kind of look like they're ripping off each other at this point. 
Even if Mattel did get the idea to use such a trait directly from Bordner's artwork, Bordner most certainly saw that same design being used by someone else and copied it himself.  His character's gills, for example, immediately made me think of Kevin Costner's character from Waterworld.
« Last Edit: February 21, 2018, 01:36:57 PM by SaelaVe »

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Offline akirafay

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Re: Monster High by Aaron Bordner - The Original Monster High?
« Reply #39 on: February 21, 2018, 10:52:41 PM »
I absolutely agree with what you're saying about inspiration.  However, I personally feel that the Asset and the Gill-Man are way more similar in design than Bordner's sea creature and Lagoona.  Bordner's creature has gills down her neck and scales on her upper arms which Lagoona doesn't have; and the hair and facial features are completely different between the two.  The only real similarity between them is their ears, and I've seen that same ear design used on dozens of other sea monsters.  It's actually pretty common to transform the earlobes into fins when designing a humanoid sea creature/sea nymph. 
Ah, I agree with that, but - there are also many, many variations between them.
So basically - similar designs exist, but there are also many more to choose from, and while on its own it could barely be considered a significant similarity, it's the combination of all the matching choices in design made together that strikes me as odd (choice of monsters, names, interpretation of the design of the monsters etc.). :)
To be fair, the comics Lagoona here looks actually like a combo of MH Lagoona and Gil.
Compared to the single shared feature between Bordner's creature and Lagoona, the Asset and the Gill-Man's similarities are pretty uncanny
Ah, that was actually not what I was trying to say; Asset was directly inspired by Gill-Man as the movie was meant to be sort of a different take on the whole monster and a woman thing. But I was talking about Asset and Abe Sapiens from Hellboy, who were often perceived as very similar, yet they are actually very different. X:

And yes, well, Lagoona and the other character look like girls, rather than like a monster, and they do not have any monstrous features except for the ears (and gills in the comics case). Which is also kind of a similarity.

But yeah, as you say. Some ideas are by now so commonplace (like the gills and the ears) it is hard to objectively judge, and maybe I am just too skeptical for my own good. :D